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	<title>Comments on: A silent SATA drive failure problem?</title>
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	<link>http://insidehpc.com/2008/07/08/a-silent-sata-drive-failure-problem/</link>
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		<title>By: Anon-a-mouse</title>
		<link>http://insidehpc.com/2008/07/08/a-silent-sata-drive-failure-problem/#comment-72758</link>
		<dc:creator>Anon-a-mouse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 03:06:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://insidehpc.com/2008/07/08/a-silent-sata-drive-failure-problem/#comment-72758</guid>
		<description>Looking at the Peter Kelemen presentation (CERN) referenced above, I&#039;d say this is vastly more attributable to the low-end Infortrend, Promise Tech, 3-ware, RAID Inc. (sorry Marc) and other RAID controllers...as well as the real culprit -- which is parity based RAID.

Sounds like a bunch of low-end RAID remarketers scrambling around to turn thier product bugs into opportunities for new features and PR.

FYI, for those who haven&#039;t done the math...parity-based raid (single or double parity, RAID 5, 6, etc. -- it matters not) with huge capacity disk drives (sata or otherwise) is like playing Russian Roulette with extra bullets in the cylinder. 

When a drive fails, you multiply your bit-error rate by the number of disks in the parity group, and there is no telling whether the parity was calculated correctly before being written - so take that number and double it again. Low-end RAID controller manufacturers have known this for many years now. The number one &quot;silent read&quot; error happens when parity is incorrectly calculated by the RAID controller on read or write...and you never know until to need to reconstruct data from that parity (when a disk fails or times-out).

All these RAID manufacturers are touting new &quot;features&quot; to correct their own design failures...and blaming the disk drives in the process. Desktop drives have better BERs and error correction than most other system components...here are the numbers (from Kelemen&#039;s talk):

● NIC/link: 10^-10 (1 bit in ~1.1 GiB)
● DRAM memory: 10^-12 (1 bit in ~116 GiB)
● desktop disk: 10^-14 (1 bit in ~11.3 TiB)
● enterprise disk: 10^-15 (1 bit in ~113 TiB)

Bottom line is that as disks get bigger and bigger, parity-based RAID is a bigger and bigger problem -- smart storage architects stick with one of several forms of simple mirroring...especially where desktop class disks are involved. Either way I&#039;ll bet that thorough analysis indicates that RAID parity is the culprit and this all has very little if anything to do with desktop-class vs. enterprise class disks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Looking at the Peter Kelemen presentation (CERN) referenced above, I&#8217;d say this is vastly more attributable to the low-end Infortrend, Promise Tech, 3-ware, RAID Inc. (sorry Marc) and other RAID controllers&#8230;as well as the real culprit &#8212; which is parity based RAID.</p>
<p>Sounds like a bunch of low-end RAID remarketers scrambling around to turn thier product bugs into opportunities for new features and PR.</p>
<p>FYI, for those who haven&#8217;t done the math&#8230;parity-based raid (single or double parity, RAID 5, 6, etc. &#8212; it matters not) with huge capacity disk drives (sata or otherwise) is like playing Russian Roulette with extra bullets in the cylinder. </p>
<p>When a drive fails, you multiply your bit-error rate by the number of disks in the parity group, and there is no telling whether the parity was calculated correctly before being written &#8211; so take that number and double it again. Low-end RAID controller manufacturers have known this for many years now. The number one &#8220;silent read&#8221; error happens when parity is incorrectly calculated by the RAID controller on read or write&#8230;and you never know until to need to reconstruct data from that parity (when a disk fails or times-out).</p>
<p>All these RAID manufacturers are touting new &#8220;features&#8221; to correct their own design failures&#8230;and blaming the disk drives in the process. Desktop drives have better BERs and error correction than most other system components&#8230;here are the numbers (from Kelemen&#8217;s talk):</p>
<p>● NIC/link: 10^-10 (1 bit in ~1.1 GiB)<br />
● DRAM memory: 10^-12 (1 bit in ~116 GiB)<br />
● desktop disk: 10^-14 (1 bit in ~11.3 TiB)<br />
● enterprise disk: 10^-15 (1 bit in ~113 TiB)</p>
<p>Bottom line is that as disks get bigger and bigger, parity-based RAID is a bigger and bigger problem &#8212; smart storage architects stick with one of several forms of simple mirroring&#8230;especially where desktop class disks are involved. Either way I&#8217;ll bet that thorough analysis indicates that RAID parity is the culprit and this all has very little if anything to do with desktop-class vs. enterprise class disks.</p>
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		<title>By: Marc DiZoglio</title>
		<link>http://insidehpc.com/2008/07/08/a-silent-sata-drive-failure-problem/#comment-71545</link>
		<dc:creator>Marc DiZoglio</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 14:43:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://insidehpc.com/2008/07/08/a-silent-sata-drive-failure-problem/#comment-71545</guid>
		<description>Hi John,

We have been dealing with this issue in general at several HPC institutions and this is not a phantom problem that exists.  I have published papers from CERN as well as Lawrence Livermore that further define the problems that they face.  The intent is to acknowledge that the problem exists.  ZFS is a files system which can in fact address this issue on the CPU side however, when fighting corruption in this method there is obviously overhead associated with the checks.  I hope this helps and if you would like the documents please let me know.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi John,</p>
<p>We have been dealing with this issue in general at several HPC institutions and this is not a phantom problem that exists.  I have published papers from CERN as well as Lawrence Livermore that further define the problems that they face.  The intent is to acknowledge that the problem exists.  ZFS is a files system which can in fact address this issue on the CPU side however, when fighting corruption in this method there is obviously overhead associated with the checks.  I hope this helps and if you would like the documents please let me know.</p>
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		<title>By: John West</title>
		<link>http://insidehpc.com/2008/07/08/a-silent-sata-drive-failure-problem/#comment-71415</link>
		<dc:creator>John West</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 03:49:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://insidehpc.com/2008/07/08/a-silent-sata-drive-failure-problem/#comment-71415</guid>
		<description>Joe, thanks for the link. The post I pointed to also cites the work of a couple others on SATA failures. You can find that info &lt;a href=&quot;http://permabit.dciginc.com/2008/05/archiving-deduplication-and-sa.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe, thanks for the link. The post I pointed to also cites the work of a couple others on SATA failures. You can find that info <a href="http://permabit.dciginc.com/2008/05/archiving-deduplication-and-sa.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: who is a failure &#124; Start a new day</title>
		<link>http://insidehpc.com/2008/07/08/a-silent-sata-drive-failure-problem/#comment-71154</link>
		<dc:creator>who is a failure &#124; Start a new day</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 07:59:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://insidehpc.com/2008/07/08/a-silent-sata-drive-failure-problem/#comment-71154</guid>
		<description>[...] Michael Garcia’s investigation of the City Council’s &#8230;Room Eight - http://www.r8ny.com&#124;&#124;&#124;A silent SATA drive failure problem?This was necessary because RAID Inc. customers had reported ’silent drive failures’ on SATA [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Michael Garcia’s investigation of the City Council’s &#8230;Room Eight &#8211; <a href="http://www.r8ny.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.r8ny.com</a>|||A silent SATA drive failure problem?This was necessary because RAID Inc. customers had reported ’silent drive failures’ on SATA [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Joe</title>
		<link>http://insidehpc.com/2008/07/08/a-silent-sata-drive-failure-problem/#comment-71133</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 04:53:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://insidehpc.com/2008/07/08/a-silent-sata-drive-failure-problem/#comment-71133</guid>
		<description>FWIW, I like real measurements.  Peter Kelemen of CERN has done this and &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nsc.liu.se/lcsc2007/presentations/LCSC_2007-kelemen.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;reported results&lt;/a&gt;.

This is why zfs is interesting, as it may be able to detect/correct some of these errors.  But then again, Google&#039;s replication concepts, and other designs, especially the ones that provide fast error detection and correction have to be the &quot;way&quot; of the future.  That is, in the limit of large drives and bit error rates small enough that even small arrays will trigger errors, your only real choice is a system that can tolerate errors.  In the limit of large numbers of drives, your MTBF for failures approaches 0.  You don&#039;t want to be continuously scanning/rescanning for the errors as the scanning may do its own bit flipping, and it doesn&#039;t solve the core problem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>FWIW, I like real measurements.  Peter Kelemen of CERN has done this and <a href="http://www.nsc.liu.se/lcsc2007/presentations/LCSC_2007-kelemen.pdf" rel="nofollow">reported results</a>.</p>
<p>This is why zfs is interesting, as it may be able to detect/correct some of these errors.  But then again, Google&#8217;s replication concepts, and other designs, especially the ones that provide fast error detection and correction have to be the &#8220;way&#8221; of the future.  That is, in the limit of large drives and bit error rates small enough that even small arrays will trigger errors, your only real choice is a system that can tolerate errors.  In the limit of large numbers of drives, your MTBF for failures approaches 0.  You don&#8217;t want to be continuously scanning/rescanning for the errors as the scanning may do its own bit flipping, and it doesn&#8217;t solve the core problem.</p>
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