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	<title>Comments on: Comparing a traditional cluster with Amazon&#8217;s EC2 on the NAS benchmarks and Linpack</title>
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	<description>HPC News Without the Noise for Supercomputing Professionals &#124; insideHPC</description>
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		<title>By: Amazon adds support for traditional HPC workloads with Cluster Compute instance &#124; insideHPC.com</title>
		<link>http://insidehpc.com/2009/08/03/comparing-hpc-cluster-amazons-ec2-nas-benchmarks-linpack/#comment-238383</link>
		<dc:creator>Amazon adds support for traditional HPC workloads with Cluster Compute instance &#124; insideHPC.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jul 2010 14:09:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://insidehpc.com/?p=6519#comment-238383</guid>
		<description>[...] servers underperform on these types of applications (lots of writing on this, but see here and here for examples). Vogels acknowledges this in his post As much as Amazon EC2 and Elastic Map Reduce [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] servers underperform on these types of applications (lots of writing on this, but see here and here for examples). Vogels acknowledges this in his post As much as Amazon EC2 and Elastic Map Reduce [...]</p>
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		<title>By: RightScale manages complexities of using Amazon&#8217;s cloud &#124; insideHPC.com</title>
		<link>http://insidehpc.com/2009/08/03/comparing-hpc-cluster-amazons-ec2-nas-benchmarks-linpack/#comment-220269</link>
		<dc:creator>RightScale manages complexities of using Amazon&#8217;s cloud &#124; insideHPC.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Apr 2010 19:48:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://insidehpc.com/?p=6519#comment-220269</guid>
		<description>[...] the solution is build on Amazon&#8217;s EC2 it has all of the limitations of that platform for certain kinds of scientific computing &#8212; but if you&#8217;re already using EC2 the hard [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the solution is build on Amazon&#8217;s EC2 it has all of the limitations of that platform for certain kinds of scientific computing &#8212; but if you&#8217;re already using EC2 the hard [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Opportunities and challenges in HPC: a conversation with Stan Ahalt &#124; insideHPC.com</title>
		<link>http://insidehpc.com/2009/08/03/comparing-hpc-cluster-amazons-ec2-nas-benchmarks-linpack/#comment-186783</link>
		<dc:creator>Opportunities and challenges in HPC: a conversation with Stan Ahalt &#124; insideHPC.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 14:49:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://insidehpc.com/?p=6519#comment-186783</guid>
		<description>[...] designed specifically for this kind of work (like Penguin&#8217;s POD offering; there is already mounting evidence of the inappropriateness of general and highly-virtualized cloud solutions like Amazon&#8217;s EC2 [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] designed specifically for this kind of work (like Penguin&#8217;s POD offering; there is already mounting evidence of the inappropriateness of general and highly-virtualized cloud solutions like Amazon&#8217;s EC2 [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Penguin launches on demand HPC utility &#124; insideHPC.com</title>
		<link>http://insidehpc.com/2009/08/03/comparing-hpc-cluster-amazons-ec2-nas-benchmarks-linpack/#comment-178115</link>
		<dc:creator>Penguin launches on demand HPC utility &#124; insideHPC.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Aug 2009 14:23:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://insidehpc.com/?p=6519#comment-178115</guid>
		<description>[...] be the primary motivator, but as you’ll read in this series of posts between Ian Foster and I (here, here, and here) it always underpins ‘when’ your answer is available. Penguin’s offering is [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] be the primary motivator, but as you’ll read in this series of posts between Ian Foster and I (here, here, and here) it always underpins ‘when’ your answer is available. Penguin’s offering is [...]</p>
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		<title>By: John West</title>
		<link>http://insidehpc.com/2009/08/03/comparing-hpc-cluster-amazons-ec2-nas-benchmarks-linpack/#comment-177701</link>
		<dc:creator>John West</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Aug 2009 02:35:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://insidehpc.com/?p=6519#comment-177701</guid>
		<description>Gordon - Thanks for reading and commenting! I think your question was probably rhetorical, but not everyone who reads here will know that &quot;free&quot; is about $16M a year, excluding acquisition costs, for a moderately-sized &quot;state&quot; computing center. I hadn&#039;t thought about it exactly that way before -- from the perspective if state-sponsored computing killing any market for commercial computing solutions suitable for scientific computation. I had thought of them as parallel &quot;markets&quot;, with the state supporting an area of endeavor separate from the commercial endeavors. My belief is that ultimately the state will have to move out of its own datacenters, or pay much more than it is already, if we are to continue to sponsor effective large scale scientific computing. To my mind this shift out of our own datacenters would be a good thing, as I think taxpayer money would be much better spent investing in the how of parallel software, not the transformers, cooling, wiring, and floor tiles.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gordon &#8211; Thanks for reading and commenting! I think your question was probably rhetorical, but not everyone who reads here will know that &#8220;free&#8221; is about $16M a year, excluding acquisition costs, for a moderately-sized &#8220;state&#8221; computing center. I hadn&#8217;t thought about it exactly that way before &#8212; from the perspective if state-sponsored computing killing any market for commercial computing solutions suitable for scientific computation. I had thought of them as parallel &#8220;markets&#8221;, with the state supporting an area of endeavor separate from the commercial endeavors. My belief is that ultimately the state will have to move out of its own datacenters, or pay much more than it is already, if we are to continue to sponsor effective large scale scientific computing. To my mind this shift out of our own datacenters would be a good thing, as I think taxpayer money would be much better spent investing in the how of parallel software, not the transformers, cooling, wiring, and floor tiles.</p>
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		<title>By: gordon bell</title>
		<link>http://insidehpc.com/2009/08/03/comparing-hpc-cluster-amazons-ec2-nas-benchmarks-linpack/#comment-177686</link>
		<dc:creator>gordon bell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Aug 2009 23:01:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://insidehpc.com/?p=6519#comment-177686</guid>
		<description>Ian makes a nice point and his slides provide more incite about cloud services. Bothering to compare EC2 or any Commercial service with public centers is moot because &quot;State Computers&quot; are &quot;Free&quot; with a cost/operation of zero creating a cloud services market of zero. Until there&#039;s a market for scientific computing, commercial services will do just fine handling data and not have to worry about MPI, fast interconnects or benchmarks. Anyone know how much &quot;Free&quot; costs?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ian makes a nice point and his slides provide more incite about cloud services. Bothering to compare EC2 or any Commercial service with public centers is moot because &#8220;State Computers&#8221; are &#8220;Free&#8221; with a cost/operation of zero creating a cloud services market of zero. Until there&#8217;s a market for scientific computing, commercial services will do just fine handling data and not have to worry about MPI, fast interconnects or benchmarks. Anyone know how much &#8220;Free&#8221; costs?</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Samuel</title>
		<link>http://insidehpc.com/2009/08/03/comparing-hpc-cluster-amazons-ec2-nas-benchmarks-linpack/#comment-177601</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Samuel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Aug 2009 00:16:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://insidehpc.com/?p=6519#comment-177601</guid>
		<description>There was also the work by Martin Sevior, Tom Fifield and Nobu Katayama on &quot;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.vpac.org/node/309&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Belle Monte-Carlo production on the Amazon EC2 cloud&lt;/a&gt;&quot; where they ran benchmark runs of the full simulation chain to see at what point EC2 overtook the cost of owning a cluster.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There was also the work by Martin Sevior, Tom Fifield and Nobu Katayama on &#8220;<a href="http://www.vpac.org/node/309" rel="nofollow">Belle Monte-Carlo production on the Amazon EC2 cloud</a>&#8221; where they ran benchmark runs of the full simulation chain to see at what point EC2 overtook the cost of owning a cluster.</p>
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		<title>By: <fb:name linked="false" useyou="false" uid="1175563457">John West</fb:name></title>
		<link>http://insidehpc.com/2009/08/03/comparing-hpc-cluster-amazons-ec2-nas-benchmarks-linpack/#comment-177264</link>
		<dc:creator><fb:name linked="false" useyou="false" uid="1175563457">John West</fb:name></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Aug 2009 05:02:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://insidehpc.com/?p=6519#comment-177264</guid>
		<description>After Ian turned his great comment into a post on his own blog about job start times, I took his example a little further and looked at total job run times for jobs representative of my own users, http://insidehpc.com/2009/08/05/queue-wait-time-assessing-cloud-hpc-performance/.

As a meta comment, this is one of those rare instances in HPC blogging when blogs actually get used for a conversation, not just for broadcasts. Cool.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>After Ian turned his great comment into a post on his own blog about job start times, I took his example a little further and looked at total job run times for jobs representative of my own users, <a href="http://insidehpc.com/2009/08/05/queue-wait-time-assessing-cloud-hpc-performance/" rel="nofollow">http://insidehpc.com/2009/08/05/queue-wait-time-assessing-cloud-hpc-performance/</a>.</p>
<p>As a meta comment, this is one of those rare instances in HPC blogging when blogs actually get used for a conversation, not just for broadcasts. Cool.</p>
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		<title>By: Ian Foster</title>
		<link>http://insidehpc.com/2009/08/03/comparing-hpc-cluster-amazons-ec2-nas-benchmarks-linpack/#comment-177122</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian Foster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Aug 2009 02:16:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://insidehpc.com/?p=6519#comment-177122</guid>
		<description>John:

I really liked Ed Walker&#039;s article. Of course, it is really just a commentary on the specific hardware and software configurations used by Amazon and NCSA. But certainly a useful reality check.

I&#039;d like to add another complementary perspective. As Ed shows, the NAS benchmarks execute faster on Abe than on EC2. However, what if one simply wants to run a NAS benchmark as soon as possible? In that case, the relevant metric is elapsed time from submission to the completion of execution. 

Let&#039;s say we want to run the LU benchmark, which takes ~20 secs on Abe and ~100 secs on EC2. Now let&#039;s add in queue and startup time. 

On EC2, it takes ~5 minutes to startup 32 nodes (depending on image size), so with high probability we will finish the LU benchmark within 100 + 300 = 400 secs.

On Abe, we can use the QBETS queue time estimation service to get a bound on the queue time. When I tried this in June, I was told that if I want 32 nodes for 20 seconds, then:
    -- With 25% chance we can get them within 100 secs, 
    -- With 50 % chance within 1,000 secs
    -- With 85% chance within 10,000 secs

So, if I had to bet, I would have to go for EC2 as the &quot;fastest&quot; place to run the NAS LU benchmark!

Of course this result reflects not the performance of the Abe vs. EC2 schedulers, but the specific scheduling policies (and loads) that they are subject to. Nevertheless, it does provide another useful perspective on the relative merits of commercial infrastructure-as-a-service providers vs. supercomputer centers.

For more on this, see: http://www.slideshare.net/ianfoster/computing-outside-the-box-june-2009.
 
Regards -- Ian.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John:</p>
<p>I really liked Ed Walker&#8217;s article. Of course, it is really just a commentary on the specific hardware and software configurations used by Amazon and NCSA. But certainly a useful reality check.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d like to add another complementary perspective. As Ed shows, the NAS benchmarks execute faster on Abe than on EC2. However, what if one simply wants to run a NAS benchmark as soon as possible? In that case, the relevant metric is elapsed time from submission to the completion of execution. </p>
<p>Let&#8217;s say we want to run the LU benchmark, which takes ~20 secs on Abe and ~100 secs on EC2. Now let&#8217;s add in queue and startup time. </p>
<p>On EC2, it takes ~5 minutes to startup 32 nodes (depending on image size), so with high probability we will finish the LU benchmark within 100 + 300 = 400 secs.</p>
<p>On Abe, we can use the QBETS queue time estimation service to get a bound on the queue time. When I tried this in June, I was told that if I want 32 nodes for 20 seconds, then:<br />
    &#8212; With 25% chance we can get them within 100 secs,<br />
    &#8212; With 50 % chance within 1,000 secs<br />
    &#8212; With 85% chance within 10,000 secs</p>
<p>So, if I had to bet, I would have to go for EC2 as the &#8220;fastest&#8221; place to run the NAS LU benchmark!</p>
<p>Of course this result reflects not the performance of the Abe vs. EC2 schedulers, but the specific scheduling policies (and loads) that they are subject to. Nevertheless, it does provide another useful perspective on the relative merits of commercial infrastructure-as-a-service providers vs. supercomputer centers.</p>
<p>For more on this, see: <a href="http://www.slideshare.net/ianfoster/computing-outside-the-box-june-2009" rel="nofollow">http://www.slideshare.net/ianfoster/computing-outside-the-box-june-2009</a>.</p>
<p>Regards &#8212; Ian.</p>
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